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Post by isa on Sept 21, 2020 13:43:53 GMT
Reading through the rules and army books, I've come across a quite few questions I'd love to have clarified. I'll number them to make them easier to respond to, and I apologise if some of this seems nitpicky, I do think i can infer intent on some of these rules, but I think it would help me and serve the game as a whole if they were clarified.
Also I apologise that my 4th or 5th post on this board is already my second thread.
1. The Impact rule refers to models with the special rule, but some weapons have it as well, like laser spears of the high elf jetspears. Do the weapon's other special rules, such as AP apply to Impact hits made with it? (I assume the model's own impact rule does not benefit from any of its weapons)
2. Is it intentional that Fast and Very Fast units still can't charge units that are more than 12" away? (they can make charge moves greater than 12", but according to the charge rules only units within 12" are valid targets)
3. The Alien Hive Burrower's Surprise Attack rule is worded a little strangely. Does it mean if the burrower comes on via Ambush that it has to be places within 3" of an enemy unit, or that it can ignore the 9" minimum distance rule in normal ambush if you set it up within 3" of an enemy unit?
4. The Pheromones rule (also alien hives) states that a unit given pheromones gets a +1 bonus to their next morale test. It doesn't say that this bonus goes away at any other point (like at the end of a round). So am I interpreting it correctly that if a unit that received pheromones keeps them until the end of the game if it never makes a morale test (same for Shrouding Mist, if the unit never gets shot at)? And if so, does the bonus stack, if the unit received pheromones multiple times before it had to make a morale test?
5.a) Can more than one Hero start the game as part of the same unit?
b) Can the hero be attached to a single-model unit, like a tank or walker?
c) What about another Hero?
6.a) If a unit attempts a charge that doesn't bring it into base contact with a unit (because they have to move through difficult terrain or they are Slow for instance) what happens? Does the charging unit still move as close as possible or does it not move at all? Can it declare such a charge at all?
b) Does the target unit still have to make the 3" move to attempt to bring models into base contact or as close as possible to the charger?
7.a) When a unit with Sniper picks a model with Tough from a unit that otherwise consists of models without Tough as its target, does the Tough model actually take wounds or are the wounds accumulated on those other models instead?
b) What about a target unit with multiple Tough models in which a model other than the chosen target has already accumulated wounds? c) If a unit with Sniper picks a single model from a unit as its target and causes more unblocked wounds than are necessary to kill that model, do the excess wounds spill over to the rest of the unit or are they wasted?
8. a) when a unit is deployed within a Transport at the beginning of a game, do the Transport and embarked units count as a single "drop" during deployment, or do you deploy the Transport individually and then when its your next turn to deploy a unit, place that unit inside the Transport? b) if a Transport has Ambush, can you put a unit inside it when putting it into reserves? As with a), does that count as a separate unit deployed or are they a single "drop"
9. a) When a unit disembarks from a Transport from where do you measure the 6" they can move? Do you place the models in contact with the transport and then move them up to 6" or do you measure from the transport.
b) If a unit disembarks via a Charge action, how do you measure the range of valid charges? From the Transport or from the unit's models after placing them in contact with the transport?
10. If a Relentless unit has more than one ranged weapon, do extra attacks from Relentless have to be made with the same weapon that generated them or can they be made with another?
11. The Immobile rule states the unit can never move regardless of which action it takes. What if it is forced to move by other means that are not its action, such as being charged?
That's all I have for now, if I find more I will post the questions here and not start yet another thread.  |
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Post by necroant on Sept 21, 2020 19:01:10 GMT
I can answer the first one, Impact is it's own separate thing and is not considered an Attack.
So it is not affected by weapon special rules, or things like Furious. You just total up the amount of Impact hits your unit dishes out on the charge(both from the models and the weapons / other gear) and that's how much automatic Ap(0) hits the target takes.
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Post by Solpine on Sept 21, 2020 21:14:34 GMT
1) As necroant said, Impact isn't an attack so no other rules apply.
2) Fast units can charge 18", so that overrides the 12" restriction.
3) Yeah, this is a bit confusingly worded, but I think the intention is the first one (i.e. you have to be within 3") since the second line then goes on to talk about targeting a unit within 3"
4) Yes, OPA's confirmed that "until next time ___" effects do stay past the end of the round until whenever it triggers. I don't believe it would stack though.
5) If you're using competitive rules, then no to all three. Otherwise, sure.
6) I would measure before declaring the charge, and if it's impossible to reach, then you simply can't do the charge and have to do something else instead.
7) Snipers target a model, so I think the model targeted is the only one to take wounds and there's no spillover. I would also think that accumulated wounds don't matter for the same reason.
8) Good question, I'm not sure on this one, I've always counted them as a single drop, but I'm not sure if that's the right way to do it. I do know though that a transport with Ambush can go into Ambush with units inside.
9) I would measure from the transport since base sizes can vary, but I think this is probably just up to you.
10) Not sure.
11) Also an edge case.. This might be up to what makes sense to you at your table. Teleporting an immobile unit may be treated differently than moving because of melee.
Hope that helps!
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Post by isa on Sept 22, 2020 0:13:58 GMT
1) As necroant said, Impact isn't an attack so no other rules apply. 2) Fast units can charge 18", so that overrides the 12" restriction. 3) Yeah, this is a bit confusingly worded, but I think the intention is the first one (i.e. you have to be within 3") since the second line then goes on to talk about targeting a unit within 3" 4) Yes, OPA's confirmed that "until next time ___" effects do stay past the end of the round until whenever it triggers. I don't believe it would stack though. 5) If you're using competitive rules, then no to all three. Otherwise, sure. 6) I would measure before declaring the charge, and if it's impossible to reach, then you simply can't do the charge and have to do something else instead. 7) Snipers target a model, so I think the model targeted is the only one to take wounds and there's no spillover. I would also think that accumulated wounds don't matter for the same reason. 8) Good question, I'm not sure on this one, I've always counted them as a single drop, but I'm not sure if that's the right way to do it. I do know though that a transport with Ambush can go into Ambush with units inside. 9) I would measure from the transport since base sizes can vary, but I think this is probably just up to you. 10) Not sure. 11) Also an edge case.. This might be up to what makes sense to you at your table. Teleporting an immobile unit may be treated differently than moving because of melee. Hope that helps! Thanks a lot! That definitely clarifies a few things.
Though some problems still remain 2. fast says the unit can move 18" when charging, but it does not state that it treats units within that range as valid targets, and you can only charge valid targets which have to be within 12" this is where all my questions with charges with higher and lower speeds come from. The 18" movement during a charge is still not useless even if you can only charge targets within 12, because it might help you get more models of the charging unit in range to attack, or enable you to surround the target unit, potentially preventing it from moving on a later turn. Combined with point 6, if what you're proposing is the correct way to handle it, the Fast and Slow special rules should state that these units treat models within their respective maximum charge distances as valid targets and maybe add to the charge rules that if the charging unit cant make a move that brings it in contact with a valid target, they must choose a different action to perform instead, to account for difficult or impassable terrain making the charge longer or the distance you can move shorter. (so for example reword Fast to read "Units with this special rule move 9” when using Advance actions and 18” when using Rush or Charge actions. They treat enemy units within 18" as valid targets for charge actions.")
7. i actually came up with a point b) to this one in the meantime, if a unit with multiple Sniper weapons of the same time shoots, can some of them pick one model from the target unit, and others pick another model from the same unit or choose to not target a specific model at all? (since all weapons of the same type must shoot the same target) If all of them have to pick the same model and as you state wounds don't spill over, i think the whole rule could benefit from stating that the chosen model is treated as if it were a separate unit for the purpose of this shooting attack.
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Post by isa on Sept 22, 2020 15:32:04 GMT
One more question about transports:
12. What determines which models can embark in a transport? As far as i can see, there is no distinction between unit types and if you had the points with the rules as written you could stuff 11 wraith titans into an Anti-Gravity APC. Since that is obviously not the intent, where is the cutoff point? Can wraithsuits or jetbikes go into a Transport?
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Post by MrCrow on Sept 23, 2020 2:42:51 GMT
The Competitive Rules tackle that issue. Otherwise it comes down to personal taste and what you and your group decide. My group agreed that infantry units are allowed while vehicles, walkers, monsters, and bikes are not. Like many things in OPR, come to an agreement to fit your groups personal tastes.  |
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Post by isa on Sept 23, 2020 12:31:32 GMT
Maybe i'm looking at the whole thing too much like a comprehensive ruleset when i should be seeing it more as guidelines.
Where can I find the competitive rules? This thread is the first time ive heard of that
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Post by zcharles on Sept 23, 2020 12:47:24 GMT
Isa, looks like we are experiencing the same problems at the same time, and you haven't had problems with cover, vehicles and ruins yet. Let's hope some developer will answer. Ok the frendly gaming me and my players are all about, but for a paceful play we need more detailed rules. I cannot rule a tournament with so many holes; I cannot re-write the whole ruleset before the tournament; my players need to know the rules before making their army list; and specifications should be in the main textbook not in a online forum, or the game will become more and more similar to the ever updating WH I am escaping from.
I like this ruleset and its soul, so let's have faith.
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Post by onepageanon on Sept 23, 2020 13:17:39 GMT
Seems to me like you are approaching the rules with the wrong mindset, and are forgetting the most important rule of our games: "Whenever the rules are unclear use common sense and personal preference. Have fun!" Our style of wargames is one of customization and playing how you want, and not of extremely strict rules that cover every possibility. If you come at the rules going with a very strict RAW approach, or need every case spelled out for you, then you won't be able to find it here, sorry. |
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Post by zcharles on Sept 23, 2020 14:52:09 GMT
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Post by isa on Sept 23, 2020 17:50:19 GMT
Thanks for the link. Yeah I'll approach the rules with a more open mindset for friendly games. Nevertheless I think it would be interesting to create a doc of tightened up advanced rules for people who want to go at it with a fully competitive mindset. Or people like me who just feel better the more concise and consistent rules are.
To this end, I drafted up a few "homebrew" clarifications based on how I interpret the rules as intended and the concrete answers i got so far:
I started putting together a doc, incorporating some other questions i found, for those who are interested, here's a link
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Post by onepageanon on Sept 23, 2020 21:20:12 GMT
The rules for movement read that units "may only charge if at least one model can reach base contact with one model from the target", so I don't think it's necessary for you to further specify that. In general, if a unit can't make a valid charge, then it can't take a charge action, so you don't need to say that "if a charge is failed it's a rush action". |
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Post by isa on Sept 23, 2020 23:36:17 GMT
The rules for movement read that units "may only charge if at least one model can reach base contact with one model from the target", so I don't think it's necessary for you to further specify that. In general, if a unit can't make a valid charge, then it can't take a charge action, so you don't need to say that "if a charge is failed it's a rush action". I must have missed that in the rulebook. (should have double checked with the Movement section) Thanks for pointing that out. |
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Post by talarius on Sept 24, 2020 7:55:22 GMT
I'm in the midst of reading the rules for the first time and I'm wondering about pre-measuring distances. I didn't notice anything specific in the full rulebook. Is pre-measuring generally allowed at any time or only in the case of Charge actions? Do people pre-measure before declaring their actions?
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Post by MrCrow on Sept 24, 2020 8:12:08 GMT
Premesuring is allowed. Though there is nothing stopping you from house ruling no premesuring.  You could even house rule failed charges. A.k.a. if it ends up you are not in range you still have to move anyway. |
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You could even house rule failed charges. A.k.a. if it ends up you are not in range you still have to move anyway.