Hey all, just played my first two games of GDF, battle bros vs Disciples of plague. I like the system, and I dont feel like im missing out on all the granularity of 40k. I walked away having it felt like a 40k experience. I have an issue though, both games i was crushed, and the other 2 friends and I all three agree its due to the Disciples of Plague list.
They both played the same list;750 pts
Lord of Plague with heavy flail and jump pack
5 plague bros with 2 plague launcher
5 plague bros with flails and ccw
plague drone with bloat probe and meat grinder.
They was charging with the plague bro with flails and getting 5 attacks each with poison, which your averaging about another 8ish hits (25 attacks/6*2 extra hits). Then the fast drone would hit with 9 poison attacks that would explode. Trying to shoot them down before they got to me was less effective because of regenerate would shrug off 33% of the wounds. We just felt that poison was super strong, mixed with the high number of attacks they could generate, paired with regenerate to get them there. I feels like poison is too strong (maybe 2 extra hits instead of 3), and/or its given out too easily. I'm a Blood Angel player and looking at Death Company, who are supposed to be my crazed attackers, they cant come close to 5 attacks, much less 5 exploding attacks. It was nuts. Has anyone else faced the same thing?
Indeed our group of players shares the same opinion regarding poison. We have house rules for this one. Instead of giving 2 extra attacks this only gives 1, except for heroes and tough 6 or more. In addition, for the second melee of a unit where it only hits on 6+ the poison only gives 1 extra hit even if it is a hero or tough 6 or more. In the latter case (mixed at 6+) keeping the poison at two extra hits gives completely insane results for the poison.
To ensure a good hit with the Death Company I always set them to ambush and send them out when I know I'll activate first or can get them out of sight while ensuring a charge.
Gorkam thanks for the response, I first wanted to make sure I was looking through the right lense and we were playing correctly. No need to have a discussion if I'm wrong! Lol.
I posted in discord but kept receiving replies like 'use more energy swords', 'use more rending' OK,understood.But that doesn't address the problem.like if a pipe bursts in my house someone telling me to use more towels or don't use that room anymore. Not addressing the problem.
And Wyloch I enjoy your YouTube batreps thank you for your how to play video too, very helpful! We use 25% to 30% terrain coverage. We've been gaming as a group over 15 years so we are fairly experienced. In a community this small I feel it's good to address problems that can solved instead of looking for solutions around them. We won't change GWs mind. But the creators of this game seem to be VERY on the pulse, and I would assume they would like feedback to make the game more fun for everyone.
Respectfully, changing mission conditions doesn't address the issue. An example I experienced; a plague drone with meat grinder capped an objective, killed a rhino, then killed a scout squad in my deployment zone. Playing a different objective doesn't address how strong and game changing that unit is. 9 poison melee attacks majority at ap2, that advances 9, rush/charge 18 inches with impact 6 and regen for only 200 pts. And running away from that can herd me into their close combat basic troop unit that out attacks my elite close combat specialists for very similar point costs.
Last Edit: Dec 29, 2020 17:57:21 GMT by corviticus: Move Stát correction
My suggestion is to approach this as a new game, without the expectations created from 40k.
If you're playing to win, I'd highly recommend using the competitive rules, which will remove some bad combos. Then you should definitely play the activation game, taking a couple of weak chaff units to pad out your activations and make sure you stay in control of the board. The ranges on movement/weapons are very deliberate, so use those to your advantage to make sure that the enemy can't reach you. If you're in control of activation and ranges, then you're halfway there already.
The Plague Brothers you are facing rely on high defense and regeneration to survive, so you can exploit that. Take weapons with high AP to counter their defense, or with rending to counter their regeneration. Weight of fire can also help, but it's not as reliable. All of his units seem to be short range, so just stay far away and fire missiles or laser cannons at them, you'll have at least 2-3 rounds of good shooting to take them down. Also, he seems to be relying on Poison, which shouldn't be that effective against your defense 2+ battle brothers, so maybe it's a bit of a luck-of-the-dice situation as well? Taking 8 hits in melee should result in ~1 battle brother dying, which isn't much, especially if you retaliate with energy swords or energy fists.
Maybe if you also posted your list or what models you have available, then we could give you some tips on how to improve on it? If you really want to go melee focused as well, then off the top of my head I think you could take squads of Death Brothers with Energy Fists, which average out to deal ~10 hits with AP3 on the charge, so that makes ~5 wounds after regeneration, wiping them out before they ever get to attack. Plus they have defense 2+ and regeneration, out-performing the plague brothers for just 245pts (vs their 240pts).
Thank you so much for the response onepageanon. Your counter plays to the unit are great, and yes I am known to roll far subpar in the group haha so I like to use math instead of anecdotes.
Per the FAQ, poison attacks keep the AP of the original attack, and their AP is 2 on the fails. I did some apples to apples math rounding to 2 decimal places with different columns for both the flails and the ccws. With the extra attacks generated by poison the plague bros with flails do 8.99 wounds with bith weapons before regen (as both units have it, that buff cancels out). The death bros do 4.49 wounds before regen and 6.73 on the charge with furious before regen. And that's using 2+ defense.
Now if both these units were to face something with less defense the plague bros generates far more wounds exponentially as the save decreases.
And like say, we are experienced enough gamers to plan around these stats when we are aware of them, I was just bringing this point up to show the intrinsic imbalance. Diving so deep I feel I'm making a mountain out of a molehill haha but the accuracy is important to me.
Thanks again for what you guys do and having this conversation with me!
Last Edit: Dec 30, 2020 17:39:31 GMT by corviticus
A interesting question is what kind of army you are using. I e units.
I notice some things. Remember the commander will not be in combart until turn 3 if you wish as he can only move 12". Also note that if you have a single squad for the Plague brothers to charge in turn 3 they will overkill a cheap unit instead.
The Plague brothers with flail are really tough in CC but they are not faster than anything else in your army. And they can not shoot. The Drone is a bit enigma. Of course it is fast but not really tough. After 3 wounds it need to take a morale test at 4+.
Generally it is an army that runs towards the enemy with a single large and dangerous CC squad, one to back up and a drone. So 3 activations. 4 if the commander is by himself. And none are fearless.
I think you can outactivate. You have more flexible units I think, depending on that kind of army you have.
Guys you are right. I think that for the sake of rule, just balancing the multiplier to 2 (instead 3) is fine.
Or maybe it should be : Poison(2) or Poison(3) depends on model?
================ I just tested autowound poison with Ghouls from AoFRegiments starters token. When you have mass of dice like 20, and then every 6 hit is auto wound, its wrong. You can easly kill expensive units, and game lose flavor. Plus with only single roll you can easily predict amount of wounds to be inflicted - the game become too deterministic (like chess).
looking at the rule, from thematic point of view, it should be a weak ability. Because it make sens to give poison to f.ex. swarm of spiders.
Taking into account the bookkeeping in OPR (with spells f.ex.), maybe the Poison Token (roll for wound on activation), is an acceptable bloat? (but what if you take multiple poison attack?)
--------- edit: if you stab someone with poisoned knife, it doesnt make sens, that his friend would also die. However, it make sense that a hit that would not be normally leathal, could kill you after, due to poison. Because of that for each 6, reroll of Defense save roll for that dice, would make sens as mechanical representation of poison. Inconvenient is to create a two pool of dice to roll.
If someone is chest naked, its almost guarantee to intoxicate him, on the otherhand for someone in FullPlate, would be hard to sting his flesh.
-------- edit 2 i make testing of +1 hit from poison and reroll tldr: reload is better, even with inconvenience of 2 dice pools.
lets say above ghouls are attacking
20 dice = > 3 poison hit, 3 normal hit.
variant +1 hit: 9 dice for save. Most unit has 5+ save => 6 wounds.
variant reroll: 3 dice for save with poison, => 1 wound + 1 wound from reroll = 2 wound 3 dice for normal save => 1 wound total 3 wounds
it feels the same in game with dice rolling. Even more Ghouls can be lucky and kill oponent with first charge. if you play without simultenaous melee, then the crippling effect of killing 6 units is too harsh (opoonent would retaliate with only 4 dice).
With the poison which gives +1 hit instead of +2. Statistically we find an equal cost when the attacker has a quality 3+. The more the quality degrades, the more the poison is "advantageous".
Since my first post on the topic we have removed the exceptions in our group and the poison is therefore +1 for everyone. If we find that a unit lacks strike force without the +2 we modify the unit in question.
I like the idea of reroll of defense. To see what cost applied with this modification.