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Post by barrys on Nov 25, 2021 22:02:45 GMT
Hi, I've been playing a fair bit of Firefight recently. Its speed is definitely one of its strengths, as is the 'cinematic' nature of the squads and their actions. I can see how the Stunned rule was created to enhance the heroism of the gameplay but, at the same time, introduce a fragility to the models. But, the problem is that, to my eyes, the Stunned rule is really tedious and frustrating to play. Rather than creating a nervous climactic atmosphere or a tense amount of trepidation it renders models impotent and useless too quickly and too often.
You see, a Stunned model is as good as dead. This is particularly true if it happened because of melee, where the attacker now sits 1" away and will simply re-charge next round and kill off the stunned model. If and when a stunned model does get to its feet then it's already lost a round and is probably about to be stunned again by someone else.
That lost round - the one where the model lies prone on the deck doing nothing - is effectively one quarter of a typical game. I find, then, that a stunned model is just an irritation; not heroic or plucky.
Elsewhere in this forum is a discussion about house-ruling a different Stunned table. Simply put, the chances of a model being stunned are lessened. This may be a simple solution but it only delays the inevitable slow-motion death of a model by a round or so. I'd like to propose a different idea:
Introduce a new order: Rally
The rally order can only be given to stunned model. It represents the heroic model dusting itself off, wiping the blood from its chin and standing up. During its activation, a rallying model may not move but it may defend, shoot or fight in melee on a 6+. This represents the model reaching for its weapon and mustering one last ounce of strength. I think that this new rule would still make the models vulnerable but it would also introduce a last-gasp John McLean-style opportunity for surprise.
BS
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Post by onepagerules on Nov 26, 2021 10:00:53 GMT
The rally order sounds like exactly what happens when you activate a Stunned model, so I'm not sure what it would bring to the game.
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Post by barrys on Nov 26, 2021 14:52:00 GMT
Fair point. I think the differences are:
1. That you could Rally on your very next activation. You wouldn't have to spend a round being idle
2. Followibg on from 1, The character has a saving throw and doesn't automatically die when re-charged or hit
Bs
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Post by onepagerules on Nov 26, 2021 16:17:40 GMT
But already now you can un-stun on your very next activation, and if you remove the auto-kill feature, then you're messing with the game's balance. I mean, feel free to play however you like, but be aware that you are messing with the fundamentals.  |
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Post by barrys on Nov 26, 2021 16:54:02 GMT
What? The 2.12 rules say that you must stay stunned until the end of your next activation.
Are there other rules somewhere else?
Bs
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Post by menacing on Nov 26, 2021 18:40:02 GMT
Sounds bad honestly. Skirmish and Firefight are super lethal, that's the point.
also that this
makes no sense, you cannot fight in melee without being able to move to Charge. Shooting is the only thing this adds, and its basically never worth the time it would take to resolve. Nothing tedious about it, OPR isn't a game about super characters doing dumb super things smash captaining their way to victory. Everybody is just a person, sometimes a person with good training and power armor. Its perfect that way.
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Post by barrys on Nov 26, 2021 18:53:54 GMT
You can fight in melee if someone charges you.
Anyway, where is this changed stunned rule that onepageanon has mentioned? I can't see it in the core rules.
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Post by menacing on Nov 26, 2021 20:17:16 GMT
You can already fight in melee if somebody charges you with the current stun-cleared state, and you fight at full capacity instead of being terrible. Literally the only thing your rule makes different is being able to shoot in that activation, but terribly. It is otherwise completely identical to using an activation to clear stun.
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Post by barrys on Nov 26, 2021 20:33:59 GMT
Again, please, what current stunned cleared state? The current rules state that you must be idle for a full activation.
It is that full idle activation, currently specified in the 2.12 rules, that I was trying to address with my rally idea.
I'll probably just house rule it because I've no idea what you an oneoageanon are on about.
Bs
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Post by menacing on Nov 27, 2021 0:40:19 GMT
The state you are in after clearing your stun. Being idle, then you can do literally everything your rule does if you are attacked, excepy your low quality shooting attack. I think you just don't understand the rules honestly. Once you sop being stunned, you can do EVERYTHING that your Rally does already, except shooting, and you do all those things at your full Quality value instead of 6+. Your Rally changes basically nothing.
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Post by barrys on Nov 27, 2021 9:04:12 GMT
Hmm, perhaps I don't understand the Stunned rule. I am using 2.12 version of the rules. This is my interpretation, is it correct? -
ROUND 1
• a model activates. It rushes 12".
• the same model now gets charged, receives wounds, rolls on wound table and becomes stunned.
ROUND 2
• the stunned model can activate to un-stun, but can otherwise do nothing this round.
ROUND 3
• the model can activate as normal.
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Post by menacing on Nov 27, 2021 10:12:43 GMT
No, in round 2 it does nothing that *activation*. Not round. It is free to defend itself to the fullest extent of its abilities. Also have just no idea what your distinction between "defend" and "fight" is on your Rally rule. If you still can't move, they mean the same thing; the only instance in which you would be able to fight at all is if you were charged, which is something you're already allowed to do at full Quality once you aren't stunned.
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Post by roosar on Dec 8, 2021 22:01:54 GMT
Keep in mind, stunned models would normally have been killed in GF. GFF just adds that opportunity for them to get out of it *maybe* -- the idea of the rule is a holdover from old school Necromunda (from the 90s), where a model could be knocked down but could make a recovery and not be completely out of the game.
So if you don't like getting stunned, use models with higher armor saves and regeneration (like Prime Brothers or Robot Legions), and keep them in cover. If you play a high model count, low defense army, just treat stunned dudes as basically dead. Don't waste early activations trying to get them unstunned, it's not worth it because the next volley of shooting at that model will likely kill them anyway. Your models that can actually do something are much higher priority. in that case, the best defense is a good offense. Put some hurting on their shooters.
--Robert
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Post by greedo on Jan 3, 2022 17:25:16 GMT
New to game, but I think I just understood something VERY important that barrys was getting at....
1. Round 1: I get charged, and get stunned. The charging unit can't kill me, because he just activated so he's done for this round.
2. ON MY NEXT ACTIVATION which could happen this round if I hadn't activated yet, I use the activation to un-stun, so the figure stands up and is ready to rock. It has "activated" for that round so can't do anything other than defend, but at least it won't get auto killed if charged again.
3. IF I do not activate it until sometime in the next round, and it's still stunned, then another model that runs over and charged it will auto kill it.
Is this correct? I was interpreting it the same as barrys where the figure was down for the ENTIRE ROUND, and very vulnerable.
So the activation activities are:
1) Shoot
2) Advance + Shoot
3) Run
4) Charge
5) Clear Stunned Status
That means that using an activation to clear a stun is incredibly important.
It also make charging quite risky. Unless I stun/kill the figure I'm charging, and if they haven't activated yet, then on their next activation, they will counter charge my stunned butt, and I die. So point to self, only charge activated figs...
Thanks for this. This really helps a lot!
This actually raises a new question: What is the purpose of "pushing" a stunned model? If I can just charge it and auto kill it, why push it? Is this for dragging a downed model as part of the scenario?
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Post by jamis on Jan 4, 2022 4:27:24 GMT
As I understand it, the attacker may push on the same activation that it stunned a model, thus allowing you to do mean things like pushing the poor guy off a building, or out of cover, or into range of another attacker.
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