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Post by emd on Aug 20, 2022 19:38:33 GMT
 Age of Fantasy: Battle Masters is an army scale wargame that blends OnePageRules with other 10mm scale fantasy games to create the action of massive armies clashing in a small package. Link to Google Drive with updated game documents.The key goals of Battle Masters are: - To create an army scale wargame that can be played on a small table (2ft x 2ft for small games, up to 3ft by 4ft for larger point games),
- Require very little bookkeeping, and
- Aiming for low cost and portability.
08.31.22: Version 0.7 is in the drive. Added a number of new special rules, two new armies, fixed a number of typos, and reworded a few rules.
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Post by emd on Aug 20, 2022 20:21:43 GMT
Designer's Portable Setup:To keep printing costs down, all the stands are printed in black and white. To help with army distinction and get some color on the table I use BulkDominos Pro Dominoes (24x48mm). While not the cheapest option, the vibrancy and feel really help with the physical enjoyment of play; also the thickness of them as stands makes it easy for gamers to pick up and move them around. I cut out units with an OLFA knife, metal ruler, cutting mat, and use Elmer's disappearing purple glue sticks (apply the glue to the domino, not the paper; will save you a lot of time and hassle). For Hero Units, I use a X-Acto Razer Saw to cut a domino in half. Since Hero's don't move or perform combat like standard units, this cut only has to be as good as you want it to be. I also have wooden cubes to represent hits, wavering units, and plastic pawn tokens to show which Heroes have yet to activate. For play out and about, I use a 4ft x 2ft neoprene mat from Inked Gaming, with a simple Hero Pattern, but these have almost doubled in cost since I bought mine; so other options might be better now.   
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Post by Lagi on Aug 21, 2022 7:42:26 GMT
Sir, the quality of your game is mind-blowing. All rules, units, army books, quickstarter. And all files are refined both in graphic form and quality of rules. A striking first posts :-)
1.
so there is no Hit Rolls, each attack is a roll against Armor, modified by AP, by the amount of dice depend from Attacker. Moreover there is only about 4 dice to roll per attack. Thats looks very efficient! I love it. I am just tired of rolling and rolling 10+ dice, just to add 2 wounds.
2.
units graphic are sterile. looks like modern nato/warsaw pack wargame. All units have the same shape, even dragons f.ex.
3.
you could rename the files and put first the most important word, f.ex. Skaven-Army-Book and then the AOF_Battlemaster...
4.
Impact looks Very good. because now its automatic wound when you charge, that you cannot defend against.
5.
Piercing is an interesting new rule, to differentiate between crossbows and rifles
6. Army books have all special rules listed on 1 page - excellent touch.
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Post by emd on Aug 21, 2022 14:59:10 GMT
I plan on renaming the files to match OPR standard (AoFBM-...) in the future, once it's more popular. Right now there is at most 6 people playing it, so BM won't help people find the game; but will probably get some laughs.
Impact is now a key strategic requirement for some army lists, but it plays well into the power of the core spearmen units. I've had a game where I just sat a unit of knight on the side-edge of the board for two rounds, just waiting- and when they charged it was glorious.
And yeah, a good number of my gaming group aren't wargamers, so having all the rules on the army list and the combat rules on the units really helps speed up the game.
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Post by Lagi on Aug 21, 2022 20:56:21 GMT
I just play little skirmish using your rules. I didnt follow all of the rules (activation with heroes), i wanted to just test this single roll attack mechanism.
This mechanic is brilliant! Its soo fast. Only one dice roll to determine how many wounds target will receive. And even this roll is done with just a few dice. Only gripe I have with having to repeat the roll 3times for each stand, but its quite cool seeing how the damage spread.
Anyway I think something is out of whack with Quickstart units.
Swordsman have 3att 4armor and nice Battle std skill with better Quality for Morale check, while his counterpart Clanrat that is only 5p cheaper has 3att 2armor.
What i am saying is that Clanrat is very lucky to not be destroyed (you need double 1), and even if one stand survive one round of combat, he has no chance to pass morale on 6+ (i know Under the Lash but i didnt play with heros).
Swordsman 3 size rolls 3 dice+1 // 3+2 // 3+1 for each stand (model). Clan rat models (3) have each 3 wounds and Arm 2.
This damage is massive for core troops. I think everything would be more in line, if the Attack rolls were lower by 1 or maybe 2 dice. So core units have attack 1.
Not sure if I'm playing it right though.
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Post by emd on Aug 22, 2022 15:49:08 GMT
You are probably playing correctly. It's a fast play army game, so equal fights will see both units taking damage- or causing each other to withdrawal from the field.
On point cost: Clan Rats are only 5pts cheaper than Swordsmen (despite being hit on 2+ instead of 4+) because the strategic value of Spear Wall and Expendable. Skaven being able to safely use their heroes in battle means Clan Rats will be getting bonus attacks from heroes far more often in a game than Empire Swordsmen would.
The other strategy around Clan Rate, and other core units, is that they have 2 armor and spears, meaning any attack or defense against elite units with AP or Impact (Greatswords with AP2, Knights with Impact), are wasting that unit"s point potential (making a 75pts unit of Greatswords, or 80pts Knights, as effective as a 45pts unit of Swordsmen).
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Post by Lagi on Aug 23, 2022 17:02:55 GMT
i disagree. i can use swordsman for the same purpose, and they cost the same, and are better. your argument make sens only if the Clanrats are cheaper. the most balance hammer-esque game is 9age overthere the worst units slaves cost half of heavy infantry. Moreover individual Slave person is priced more than 4x less than veteran (heavy core infantry). i.imgur.com/mTpHHyJ.pngAlso I think 4 armor (50%) for swordsman and greatswordsman is too much (same like knight in plate?). As i check in WAP swordsman are not even equipped with light armor by default. I will play full battle using your rules, and printouts. |
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Post by emd on Aug 23, 2022 23:47:04 GMT
I will play full battle using your rules, and printouts. That would be a good start. I had a 1500pts game, Empire vs Skaven, and it was decided by 20pts. So while you have valid concerns I can't agree with them. |
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Post by Lagi on Aug 24, 2022 21:19:08 GMT
Man A BIG kudos. Your rules are a holy grail. This one dice roll for wound check is fantastic. It feels soo smooth. I love it. I love to just roll twice, and have the wounds result for both combat participant! This is in fact how I imagine the warhammer combat would looklike before i even start reading the rules as a teenager. ======================== before we get to pictures. The game is hectic. Everything dies in 1st round of combat. I have head full of thoughts. I think the point balance doesn't matter that much, because everything dying quite sudden, so yeah just by having more blocks you have an advantage (not by quality). -im not sure what i am supposed to do with hero, after battle, when he is out of unit, if he dont have armor. -the column formation suppose to be defensive one, but it doesnt look like it give any benefit? Support dice is plain worse that 3 attack dice with special rules. Its better to stay in line, because you roll more attack dice. -many time i have no clue how to arrange my units in 3x block formation. I think 2 words of clarification will be nice. - "maximize contact" there is many cases, when Im struggling. Should i move enemy unit? corner charge are allowed? flank charge? can i surround enemy unit? - supporting attack, multi units combat. Can you suddenly become out of combat, because the enemy die? or is this like rubber band mechanism, once you touch enemy, you keep shifting your units?
Here I have marked part of the rules that need some more clarification (formations -benefit of line formation, how to maximize contacts, supporting units - its underwhelm, and should provide some edge over line formation). I think left column could be skip for one page rules. You could write like 6 page pamphlet to explain some situations better.
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Post by emd on Aug 24, 2022 22:00:16 GMT
Thank you Lagi, I'm glad you enjoyed it. So I'm currently working on a Full Rulebook that will cover a lot of these edge cases you are bringing up, but as with standard OPR I just recommend you go with what feels fair at the moment if anything weird comes up.
- -im not sure what i am suppose to do with hero, after battle, when he is out of unit, if he dont have armor.
Heroes are more transitory/representative than actual units on the field. They have no Armor stat because they cannot be targeted in combat, they just add their Attack value to the unit they are attached to; as well as any other special rules they have.
If a Hero is ever in the way, just move them a reasonable distance out of the way. I've just started stacking them on-top of the unit since it's just dominos.
After a unit a Hero is attached to is destroyed, roll a D6- On a 1, 2, or 3 the Hero is also destroyed and removed from play (meaning you are down an activation). If the Hero lives, just leave them where they are.
- -the line formation suppose to be defensive one, but it doesnt look like it give any benefit? Support dice is plain worse that 3 attack dice with special rules. Its better to stay in line, because you roll more attack dice.
- - "maximize contact" there is many cases, when Im struggling. Should i move enemy unit? corner charge are allowed? flank charge? can i surround enemy unit?
The key benefit to the line is that all your units are more likely to be able to use all their attack. So line-on-line, all units should get there maximum. If you have a line of three charged by a 2-1 stacked unit, even if they just charge into two bases of your units, you can shift your line over a bit, to maximize contact, to get your 3 units to be in base-to-base with their 2 front units (making it a 3 on 2 /w support fight for calculating attacks).
Flanking will change all this, but that rule needs to get a full writing. In general, if the charging unit is fully outside a defending units front arc, that defending unit may make no defensive fire or movements. In addition, attacking unit may encircle a flanked unit if they would have the movement distance to do it.
- -many time i have no clue how to arrange my units in 3x block formation. I think 2 words of clarification will be nice.
As long as they are touching you can have them in whatever you want. Advanced rules will have penalties for this, and also requirements that a rush ended in a column formation, but those are later things.
Just remember that if a unit would move backwards or sideways it can only do so 2".
- - supporting attack, multi units combat. Can you suddenly become out of combat, because the enemy die? or is this like rubber band mechanism, once you touch enemy, you keep shifting your units?
Right now you can consolidate into additional combat. When attacking, you can only hit a unit you are in combat with. Here's an example: - You charge a unit of Rat Ogres into a unit of Zombies that is being supported by a unit of Skeletons (a 3-3 stacked line); so 12 + Furious(3) attacks vs 2 Arm, and 6 + 3 attacks vs 3 Arm. You hit 12 attacks killing all 3 Zombies, and only 3 hits in return (marking it on the unit since no orge unit was killed).
- Move the Rat Ogres back one inch, but since you destroyed the zombies you can move 2" forward right into that supporting Skeleton units. This counts as a charge, so once again you get 12 + Furious(3) attacks vs the Skeleton unit's 9 attacks.
- You roll 9+ hits, destroying the skeletons, but take 3 hits in return again. Now you are at 6 hits for the Rat Ogres so one will be removed, leaving two hits left on the unit. But there is nothing else left to attack, so you can move back 1 inch, reposition, then end your turn; removing those 2 hits- bringing the remaining two ogres up to 'full health'.
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Post by emd on Aug 24, 2022 22:48:54 GMT
Also, only hits from shooting happen instantly. If you defensive fire and do enough hits to kill off a unit/model, it's destroyed before the charge move is made.
However, if you have enough Impact to kill a model from a unit on the charge those hits are added to the units total damage done, so all defending models still get their attacks.
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Post by Lagi on Aug 25, 2022 10:06:36 GMT
requirements that a rush ended in a column formation, since you destroyed the zombies you can move 2" forward right into that supporting Skeleton units. This counts as a charge, so once again you get 12 + Furious(3) attacks vs the Skeleton unit's 9 attacks.
so column is just plain worse? this requirment after rush should be a core rule. Its fluff and feels nice.
- line - the best
- column - forced by rush
- mixed 2-1
unit in column should have bonus to morale rolls +1/+2. it would be sensible to stay in a box, if you know you dont do much of a killing.
charging twice a round is wrong. I remember games where Sphinx was activated twice a round due to spell. That was imba, game last 4 rounds. Extra round of killing streak for monster is just insane. Maybe this could be balance by some penalty to charge. But why complicate the game? I play OPR in the first place, because i want smooth experience, without headache, competitive feeling nor getting tired from dice rolling.
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Post by emd on Aug 25, 2022 15:05:50 GMT
Multi-charging in Battle Masters is a double edged sword. Because all attacks happen simultaneously there is always a chance you will get hit, and if you keep pushing you can lose really powerful units. Sometimes you will look down, say "two hits on my ogres is enough, I don't want to risk two more" and stop.
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Post by Lagi on Aug 27, 2022 8:32:51 GMT
i have play another game, with multi-charging as you called it (multicharge is rather when multiple units do the charge, and melee is resolved with more than 2x units at once), and with ignoring hero on board if he is not in unit. (i didnt play with column after rush) 1. Morale have to be tested when unit lose half or more models. But there are only 3 models. So i test when i lose 2 (at once from fresh status), if i lose more than 2 (3+) then units stop existing. 2. there is a "tactical" model removal, which becomes silly. I can wound a model at one side, knowing his death will allow me to be closer to next target, or disengage from combat. [maybe attacker should allocate wound/remove victims?] 3. corner charge - this have to be specified. I think corner charge should NOT be allowed. 3. flanking maximizing contacts. Well im putting 2x units against shorter edge of target to maximise contacts (6 attacks, not 3). However, it feels natural that i should be able to only align 1 model against target 1 flank. 4. can i shoot multiple times against front charging opponent, if i keep killing them? 5. hero dying in combat is game breaker. I know its because you have only 1 in quickstart rules. But this means putting him inside units is suicide stupid move that cost you game. 6. what to do when Morale result after melee it tie? I understand nothing. Would be silly if both unit run away from each other. ============================== that was my 2nd game trying to use all rules, as written. some of my impression: a. multiple models per units are nice to track wounds (only 1 or 2 marker), and diminishing effectiveness (attacks) of damaged unit. b. morale roll is rare. Often units are wipeout, and there is nothing to roll. if unit survive 2x attacks its a sensation. c. all units feels the same. its 3 stands, with 3 wounds each, 3 attacks each. yes they have morale that doesnt matter that much, or AP value (but skavens dont mind, as they save on 1 anyway). d. there is no game with unit formation at all. i dont use line, only when i dont have enough front for 3 models. e. results are very swingy, because one roll and high ratio of attacks:tough. Even skavenslaves are deadly, and can destroy 2 models in one attack. f. i must agree with you now that clanrats are priced accordingly. for this rule set. The rule Expendable is dealbreaker. I can risk-free include my Warplord inside slaves or clanrats, and guarantee (with +3 dice) annihilation of the opponent. Something that empire player cannot do, because the risk of losing your Captain is just too big, so you dont include him in units. g. roll for amount of Orders, can lose you a game. If you roll 1, you can only activate 2 units. h. i just notice that is suppose to remove the wound markers at the end of the round. Strange. Its extra work between round. There is max 2 wounds per unit anyway.
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Post by Lagi on Aug 27, 2022 13:04:47 GMT
i play 2 more games. One i dont allow for corner charge, and supporting models also grant Morale and Combat resolution. 2nd as above. And i reduce all attacks by 1. Except for models with 1 or 2 attacks. 1st game: lack of corner charge, improve the balance between column and line. Because column formation take less hits. However amount of attacks is still overwhelming the little Combat resolution (work like Battle Standard rule). Bonus to Morale is much better however, because if unit survive it gives them real chance to not rout. 2nd game: with reduction of attack the units statistic start getting importance. No longer everything kills everything. This make skaven army much worse however point wise. Handgunners are quite weak with 3 shoot attacks, and they use they guns mostly to counter charges, they feel like spearman. If everyone has less attacks the bullet fire start being significant. With 2 attacks. Supporting attack gain value. And it start being a consideration if i want to sacriface one dice to gain +2 to Morale roll. Fearless rule could be removed. Just improve Quality by 1 (from 4+ to 3+). Captain and Warlord cost the same 50p. Warlord being clearly better.
on this pictures you see that the greatswords roll only 6 dice = kill max 2 models of clanrats. And clanrats stand ground because roll morale on 4+ instead 6+. Due to extra morale from supports.
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