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Post by grindigadeifi on Feb 7, 2023 18:48:37 GMT
We recently finally tried out AoF regiments and are very enthusiastic. Kudos to the designer. But what we noticed almost as the only negative would be that the units are very small compared to, for example, WHFB. 10 (2*5 combined units) for "Elite" or 20 models for "Standard troops". Unfortunately, this affects our rank'n'file feeling a lot. We would like to see an increase of twice as much. What is the reason for the limitation? Is there experience or optional rule modules if you double the maximum unit size, for example? What consequences/problems can be expected?
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Post by marder1 on Feb 8, 2023 7:48:39 GMT
The reasoning has to do with Game Balancing.Check the thread on "Triple units" in this section. Baradaeg has answered to this.
Tbh, large Blocks of Infantry(>20 models/unit) were actually only a thing in WHFB 8th. Edition. In all prior editions, we played , even with skaven, skellies or goblins, 20-30 max in one block....And even in 8th. mainly for lower tier infantery units such as States troops, Skaven-slaves ( I had 3 blocks of 60 in my Skaventide, O&G and to some extend, Beastmen ). High tier infantry like WoC or Bi-Handers came in blocks uf 18-24 max ( around 450- 500 pts each including banners !). Except for a few deathstars which were banned by most comp-rules anyways.
Elite infantry came in blocks of 5 -10..in WHFB as in AoFR. The triggers for the huge blocks in 8th. were mainly the ominous new "steadfast" and "Hordes" rules .and they were most of the time not enjoyable.
Lots of money, lots of model assembly andd painting time, little effect in the game other then delaying the inevitabLE. And , due to bad game design,often misused. To counter hordes, GW invented a crazy magic system with some spells removing entire units from the gametable..ideally in turn 1 or 2. Normal weapons were not anymore able to deal with a 40 Model steadfast unit , buffed by a few characters...very lame and boaring....and causing unneccessary powercreep in an, otherwise enjoyable, game.
In addition, most WHFB games at the time were played with only rudimentary scenery and the obligatory hills for arty on both sides of the playing table, allowing some movement for such unwieldy unit-blocks.
Also WHFB lasted 6 rounds instead of 4 as with AoF/R...
Typically, AoF/R is ( like most OPR Games) an objective based game on tables with lot's of scenery. Which actually favours quick and agile units hitting hard to claim an objective and maybe keep it for round by "larger" and cheaper units rather than shovelling pretty clumsy blocks of, otherwise rather useless, chaff over the board.
I played a number of OPR games now ( always 2.500 pts ) and I used mainly armies which could be considered "Horde" ...many bodies. I found, on a typical OPR gaming table with 4-6 Objectives , various buildings/hills/forest/swamp etc, blocks of more than 20 models of infantery can become quite difficult to handle and actually offer no real advantage in a game where you start at latest in round 3 to think how to make up for missed VPs quickly taking over new objectives or fullfilling open missions...
Hope this helped a bit.
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Post by grindigadeifi on Feb 8, 2023 12:06:12 GMT
Thank you for the detailed explanation. Yes, it helps me a lot to understand the model limit now. I like to believe and have seen for myself that the game can be played better with smaller regiments. We don't necessarily want hordes with 60+ models or the like. But elite units with only 10 models still feel too little in a game explzit for regiments. Also in WHFB 6./7. Edition you have seen often 15er or 20er elite regiments or 25-30 standard regiments.
Sure, nobody needs 40 Ironbreakers with king and AST in it, but any interim solution would be fine. But of course I understand that this is not planned at the moment, because it causes too many problems. I'll read the article with the TripleUnits. Thanks for the tip.
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Post by marder1 on Feb 8, 2023 18:13:29 GMT
Thank you for the detailed explanation. Yes, it helps me a lot to understand the model limit now. I like to believe and have seen for myself that the game can be played better with smaller regiments. We don't necessarily want hordes with 60+ models or the like. But elite units with only 10 models still feel too little in a game explzit for regiments. Also in WHFB 6./7. Edition you have seen often 15er or 20er elite regiments or 25-30 standard regiments. Sure, nobody needs 40 Ironbreakers with king and AST in it, but any interim solution would be fine. But of course I understand that this is not planned at the moment, because it causes too many problems. I'll read the article with the TripleUnits. Thanks for the tip. Glad I could help a little. When playing 6./7. Edition, our largest blocks in Elite are around 20 models of Infantery anything more was way to expensive ( in points ). However, the game mechanics in AoF asks rather for more activations in a player turn then for larger units to activate. However, As there are no restrictions on how many units you could take ( as long as you stay in the points limit you agreed upon ),, you can of course take 2 units of 20 and keep them in close proximity to each other in order to work together almostvas one. If you can keep them closely aside from each other and activate them one after another, you could even use a kind of "Detachment" tactics as the empire did in 6.Edition. Also, if really want to play such huge regiments, you can of course "houserule" the max. Size. and try to make the best out of it. You have to see , that AoF not a simple ( poor man's ) version of WHFB or WHFB "light". It is , in particular when you include just a few of the many special rules, really a different game on it's own for which you can use you existing collection of Minis. Bit like KoW and other miniature agnostic rules. It does, however, provide for a lot of fun and that is, what players ultimately look for, I think. All the best and have fun.
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Post by grindigadeifi on Feb 9, 2023 12:39:44 GMT
It's vers sad, as AoF:R is actually my new favorite within the R'n'F systems. Really find the game totally good in all aspects (at least after the first test game)! With the exception of said limitations.
I think we'll try it out one by one with house rules and evaluate what it did. - To increase limits testwise with elite first to 15 models (and to 25 with standard). Then possibly further to 20 and 30. - 2 same units moving together but formally separated
I don't think the suggestion with the multibases from the Triple Units Thread can be implemented well.
Otherwise, we may have to get used to the low model numbers (again).
Thank you again for the information and tipps.
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